Points Given up 2003-2005

[FireFightnJoey]

To say the least, I have been extremely disappointed with this season. I need something to give me hope for next year. Who do we have coming back that I can say, that is one heck of a player? The list of names is not that long. What marquee players do we have like Booger, Hurd, Spencer, Knowles, Buckles, etc., etc. But that is not what this post is about.

I was perusing the CFN site to check a score and noticed something about our scores. Specifically the points we gave up within conference. Here is a breakdown of what we gave up. I included the OOC games that would now be considered in conference for 2003 and 2004, but broke it down two ways to show conference average and future conference average. The extra game ended up not making much of a difference.

OPP 2003 2004 2005

=== ==== ==== ====

ULL 23 17 31

MTSU 28 21 7

ULM 26 20 24

ASU 14 7 24

NMSU 10 26 X

IDAHO 14 29 X

Utah St 27 23 X

TROY 0 X 13

FAU X 20 26

FIU X X 10

============

Tot All 142 163 135

Tot Conf 142 143 135

ppg Conf 20.3 20.4 19.3

ppg ALL 17.8 20.4 19.3

Where is the drop off on defense? We are almost dead even across the board. And 2003 was the all star defense we talk about. All of our games within conference this year were decided by one score or less. So reminiscent of our 2002 OOC loses.

Offense. Major drop off. Our ppg average for all conference foes was the following:

Cat 2003 2004 2005

=== ==== ==== ====

Pts Tot 258 264 118

ppg avg 32.3 33 16.9

In 2003 we won 60% of our conference games by atleast 2 scores or more. In 2004, we won 75% of our conference games by aleast 2 scores or more, much more.

Why could we not win the close ones? Defense depth? Defense too dang tired because offense can't produce. How many 3 and outs can they handle? I believe that in a couple games we had good clock control and still lost. Still, offense can control the clock all they want, but they got to score.

Where does this leave us in recruiting? It seems more important to get some good OL recruits and an outstanding QB. Defense will have its issues on the corners and the DL can always beef up, we don't need to plan on TJ Raymond or others coming back. That will be a bonus.

Let's talk OOC. This is what our defense gave up.

Cat 2003 2004 2005

=== ==== ==== ====

pts tot 92 144 204

ppg avg 31 48 51

Our OOC games seemed more winnable this year and therein lies the issue with the 2005 stats in my opinion. Depth. If the offense doesn't give them some time to catch their breath, depth becomes a problem with the likes of LSU, KSU ... but not so much with TU and LTech?

Thoughts? I don't want this to be a Dickey bash session. Plenty of that going on. I want this discussion to be about where we need to recruit and what we need to do.

[mad dog]

That's a pretty good breakdown.

Good research!

[DallasGreen]

Stats can measure a lot of things, but they can't measure heart. This team as a whole rated way at the bottom of the years you compared. As for D on the field too long---one answer---get in shape. You know the offense is not going to give you a lot of bench time so prepare yourself to play 40 minutes if that is what it takes. I look back at the 2003 team that played TCU and got NO offensive support, but they still kept giving the O the ball in great field position over and over again. IMHO it became much easier for this team to lose after the TU shellacking ( worst defeat in Fouts Field history). It became much more important to show your macho by being an individual thug rather than a team player.Those who won't be beat can't be beat. Excuses are like rear ends--everyone has one.

[Monkeypox]

2002 was actually the all-star defense we talk about.

2003 was a better overall team, but the defense was weaker and the offense stronger. If the offense is holding the ball longer, it gives less opportunity for scoring.

[Michael Scott]

Stats can measure a lot of things, but they can't measure heart.

←

A regression analysis shows we have 40% less heart than last year.

[KingDL1]

2002 was actually the all-star defense we talk about.

2003 was a better overall team, but the defense was weaker and the offense stronger.  If the offense is holding the ball longer, it gives less opportunity for scoring.

←

Yup 2002 was the year our Defense was ranked in the top 10. Then DeLoach left and the D slowly went down hill.

[meangreanmick]

The real difference this year for our defense was we couldn't stop the run and we had Cowboys disease (can't stop the other team at the end when you have to).

[PlummMeanGreen]

Stats can measure a lot of things, but they can't measure heart. This team as a whole rated way at the bottom of the years you compared. As for D on the field too long---one answer---get in shape. You know the offense is not going to give you a lot of bench time so prepare yourself to play 40 minutes if that is what it takes. I look back at the 2003 team that played TCU and got NO offensive support, but they still kept giving the O the ball in great field position over and over again. IMHO it became much easier for this team to lose after the TU shellacking ( worst defeat in Fouts Field history). It became much more important to show your macho by being an individual thug rather than a team player.Those who won't be beat can't be beat. Excuses are like rear ends--everyone has one.

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FOR LURKERS ONLY/THE REST OF YOU HAVE HEARD THIS 1,000 OTHER X'S

Dallas Green, myself and others on this board saw Hayden Fry (who because some of our young gun alums I'm afraid have been Dickey-ized & because of that would have most likely even said back in 1972 that we wouldn't be able to hire such a name coach at UNT); anyway, what many of us saw in the Fall of 1973 was Coach Fry take a Rod Rust football team that the year before was 1 and 10 and then we saw Fry turn (basically) that same Rod Rust football team into conference champions (which even a win over U of Louisville in 1973).

WE HAVE SOME DAMN GOOD FB PLAYERS ON OUR TEAM NOW...Wish they would collectively go have a heart to heart with Bobby Ray if they think the rest of their careers at UNT could be better with a "Coach Price" or "Coach Fry" type hire. (Of course, such a meeting would be chancey' for their future playing tme since BR and DD are on the same SBC/Bottom 10 page).

Yet its just that many of us don't think our (most deserving) present Mean Green football players will ever reach their potentials individually and, subsequently, as a team with DD in charge next season or the next or the next. Lets think back now on some Dickey-Ball starting with Tulsa, FAU, La Tech U, U of S. Florida, a 1-AA Troy St. loss in 2001--our, uh, first bowl year?

....................................................................................................

Still the all time "tell tell' with DD and those 4 bowl games? How about the cold stark reality that not one NCAA D1-A school has yet to put him on their serious list as a head coach candidate? Are there just a handul here getting the message with that? A sky-written message by ACME Sky-Writer, Inc couldn't make it more obvious or more plain.

.....................................................................................................

Still, our present (at the top) UNT leaders are fine with sacrificing the 2006 football season while there is a "Coach Price" or "Coach Fry" out there just waiting in the wings to come to UNT and be everything to our campus, the Denton community, DFW NT Exes and one would probably even pull up his sleeves to help to raise some significant monies that his name ID alone would help; all the aforementioned things that DD has shunned from the git-go in the opinion of many. We need to turn Bobby Ray's response to a question posed to him last Saturday post-ASU loss on how our stadium fund-raising is going from........nowhere..............to: You know, since we hired "Coach Higher Profile/With Name ID" you can't believe some of the doors in the DFW area we are now getting in.

After all, we have history on our side in Denton, folks, and that is how a "1" win football season in 1972 was changed to conference winnner in 1973, but again, the pedigree of our head football coach in Denton in 1973 started with 2 words in a name: Hayden Fry

If the Mo' Valley had had a bowl tie-in, Fry would have probably kept us in it that league for awhile and would have gone to several Mo' Valley sponored bowl games with the quality of teams we saw, but the most impressive part of Fry's resume toward the end of his tenure in Mean Green Country were wins over schools a DD-led NT football program could only fantasize about winning at this moment.

Our present Mean Green players (dammit') just deserve a better chance to be successful in OOC play (and now even SBC/Bottom 10 play) than they've been getting if you look real close at the DD Years in an NT FB media guide. So come on Mr. Ray, do the right thing for your alma mater. Make the Mean Green Nation be proud once again of who our head football coach is--not embarrassed when disses his employer and his employer's fans/alums on the radio.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

Edited December 1, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[meangreendork]

I fully agree that the talent is in this team to be more than it was. I fully believe that next year's recruits will also have the ability to go at least 8-3 (or the equivalent, I don't know our new sched by heart).

I don't know if Dickey will lead them to that. I think that if he digs deep that he can and will, but I don't think he'll push himself that far.

[KingDL1]

I don't know if Dickey will lead them to that........ but I don't think he'll push himself that far.

←

DD can't even push himself to hold his own Diet Coke!!!

[PlummMeanGreen]

I fully agree that the talent is in this team to be more than it was. I fully believe that next year's recruits will also have the ability to go at least 8-3 (or the equivalent, I don't know our new sched by heart).

I don't know if Dickey will lead them to that. I think that if he digs deep that he can and will, but I don't think he'll push himself that far.

←

Come on now, meangreendork, take off the glasses.

First of all, we start the season 0 & 3 with the schedule I've seen, ie UT, SMU and then we travel to Tulsa. The 4'th game is vs. MTSU. Can we really beat a MUTS team that will be freshly energized by a brand new head football coach? How close was our game with the MUTS this year? We all know that answer. So could we even start 2006 with an 0 & 4 record? Time to get the attorneys to work on yet another contract extension? I won't even go into the remainder of the 2006 schedule which one of you pointed out to me that we play our toughest SBC foes on the road. Do we give DD a pay raise with that additional extension?

But who comes into play on the MG defensive line next year? Do you see that line making a 180 degree turn around (which is what would have to happen)? You remember the NT defensive line, right? The same one that each time our opponents hiked the ball our DL had already been pushed back 1-2 yards? That will be the main reason most every team I see on the 2006 football schedule with even average RB's we may turn them into All Americans. Remember even how new SBC team and (not yet) fully NCAA D1-A FAU pushed us around at the end of the game? Do we out-coach and beat a Howard Schnellenberger team at Fouts in (only) our 3'rd try?

Many of our elect seem to have already forgotten SMU's 2 major wins over TCU and UTEP this year; also a SMU team that improved remarkably compared to past teams. You know why SMU can do that and UNT can't? R-E-C-R-U-I-T-I-N-G

EZ Question: If UNT would have played TCU, UTEP or other CUSA schools SMU beat this season, how would we have fared?

But we can still burn another year with a coach who sitll has an 8 years under .500 record. This is just not the University of North Texas I used to be proud of from top to bottom. 8 years, folks, 8 years.......

GBT!

Edited December 1, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[FirefightnRick]

The '02 season we ranked 9th overall and were in the top 3 in scoring defense. We only gave up 27 to Texas in the first half and held them scoreless the second half. That NT team played like it enjoyed giving you the ball at mid field just for the challenge. They were incredible. Still, they played and beat two good offensive teams that year in MTSU and NMSU, both games coming down to the wire at the end of the season. The NMSU game ended up 38-27. In '03 I believe we finished 22nd overall or in scoring defense. Idaho and NMSU both had good offenses. One season Idaho was in the top 10 in offense. With that said, I agree that it must be a loss of depth, and possibly some sort of change in philosophy by maybe a position coach or two that has been the difference. But mostly the loss of Kennedy and Cardwell is where I lay most of our problems. When two individuals can dominate like they did, forcing an offense to have to worry about them, that gives you an edge. We didn't have that this year. I had thought maybe we still had something special on defense when we came out and stopped MTSU their first series of their game and then forced them to punt much of the night when they weren't turning it over or missing field goals. Then when we held Tulsa on their first series I thought this team was going to gel early and move forward. But they were never able to stiffen when we needed them to like in years past.

What I have looked at mostly to get me looking forward to next season is that the final 2 1/2 quarters of the ASU game we had one senior, a sophomore and two true freshmen playing in our secondary. We will be solid there next season as will our linebacking corp. Our D line had two juniors on the two deep. The rest were sophomores, redshirt freshmen and a true freshman. What we need desparately, desparately!, is that one Booger/Cardwell/Awasome type that can create some problems. We need a recruit, either from HS or Juco that has that motor running it's RPM's in the red all the damn time. We find that one guy to go along with the youthfull talent that will be coming back and this defense will be rock solid again.

Rick

[TIgreen01]

The '02 season we ranked 9th overall and were in the top 3 in scoring defense.  We only gave up 27 to Texas in the first half and held them scoreless the second half.  That NT team played like it enjoyed giving you the ball at mid field just for the challenge.  They were incredible.  Still, they played and beat two good offensive teams that year in MTSU and NMSU, both games coming down to the wire at the end of the season.  The NMSU game ended up 38-27.  In '03 I believe we finished 22nd overall or in scoring defense.  Idaho and NMSU both had good offenses.  One season Idaho was in the top 10 in offense.  With that said, I agree that it must be a loss of depth, and possibly some sort of change in philosophy by maybe a position coach or two that has been the difference.  But mostly the loss of Kennedy and Cardwell is where I lay most of our problems.  When two individuals can dominate like they did, forcing an offense to have to worry about them, that gives you an edge.  We didn't have that this year.  I had thought maybe we still had something special on defense when we came out and stopped MTSU their first series of their game and then forced them to punt much of the night when they weren't turning it over or missing field goals.  Then when we held Tulsa on their first series I thought this team was going to gel early and move forward.  But they were never able to stiffen when we needed them to like in years past.

What I have looked at mostly to get me looking forward to next season is that the final 2 1/2 quarters of the ASU game we had one senior, a sophomore and two true freshmen playing in our secondary.  We will be solid there next season as will our linebacking corp.  Our D line had two juniors on the two deep.  The rest were sophomores, redshirt freshmen and a true freshman.  What we need desparately, desparately!, is that one Booger/Cardwell/Awasome type that can create some problems.  We need a recruit, either from HS or Juco that has that motor running it's RPM's in the red all the damn time.  We find that one guy to go along with the youthfull talent that will be coming back and this defense will be rock solid again.

Rick

←

Anybody know the details on Isaac Thomas?....he dressed for the last 3 home games but never played a down. Is he going to be a medical redshirt? Also, what are the chances we'll see him next year?

[PlummMeanGreen]

Rick, if I may ask the question, where do you stand with Darrell Dickey as the future of Mean Green football, though? If that too nosey a question, I apologize.

BUT...........one good statistical football season does not a coach's entire career make at UNT (or at least we all hope it doesn't).

The UNT defensive line I saw this Fall I'm not sure can turn it 180 degrees as to become stoppers with the 2006 OOC football schedule I've seen and an SBC that is now even (but probably moreso ahead since we are now at the bottom) with a Dickey-led football team.

And come on, fellow alums/fans, as far as our 2 defensive linemen Issac Thomas and Big Cat Raymond? They had been the rage of Spring football in the past, but many other players are the rage of Spring Football that many times never translates to Fall football.

The 2 aforementioned had many on this board acting if both would have played this Fall, that there would have been a big difference with our DL play--well, maybe so--maybe not. Question: Is T.J. Raymond in class at UNT or a JUCO and does he even plan on trying to come back to NT next football season? Anyone know?

On another subject, there will be even more like Rice's Coach Hatfield on the look for new head football coaching jobs. Not sure his style of offense is what UNT needs as far as us to see significantly increased football ticket sales that will take our school to that 30,500 per game averages which I hope is our goal for attendance at UNT. I think we all know that would be Rick V's goal; now if he were only allowed to hire his football staff that willl give him a chance to leave 15,000 per home game averages behind forever (and that even that "AFTER" , uh, 4 bowl games, fellow alums AND....... NT Board of Regents.

Anyone else think another Hayden Fry-type hire or a Mike Price or (even a completely 100% exxonerated) Rick Neuheisel hire might synergize the entire Mean Green Nation and NT community with a positive new beginning and approach that we desparately need to have right now? A new beginning that much too biased management happening at a Texas public university is presently delaying UNT's eventual football future? And that with a coach who will be an NT community team player kind of head football coach who doesn't kick its alums around on the radio non-stop

AND..............such a new higher profile hire that would even give Rick V an additional NT Athletic Dept. fundraiser in these times when we of UNT need one raising monies for the main campus AND not..............Chancellor "no-Phd" Lee Jackson's UNT-Dallas pink elephant project that is still not a free standing university yet.

Come on now, dump that school, boys. The Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board and Texas Legislature probably now know the truth about our bold (but not real smart) under-taking of that south Dallas County project. With the UNT System's ridiculously low financial endowment, we cannot afford the drain of potential monies that would normally find their way to UNT-Denton; and who knows, monies that might even build us a new football stadium?

Jumpin' Jehosophats! Are we living through an episode of the Twilight Zone at UNT these days?

Dad gum it! Someone come out here to the Parker County country-side and take all this truth serum away from me! I know, not the truth to all, but the truth as many more are beginning to see it. Most of the themes posted above in this post I've heard from some of you, BTW.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

Edited December 1, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[TIgreen01]

"truth serum"???.....more like negative serum.

[Eagle1855]

succinct

adj,

Characterized by clear, precise expression in few words; concise and terse: a succinct reply; a succinct style.

[buff64]

FFRick, thanks for giving Evan Cardwell some recognition, he gave us years of full effort, yet seemed to be invisible in terms of honors and general notice.

The '02 season we ranked 9th overall and were in the top 3 in scoring defense.  We only gave up 27 to Texas in the first half and held them scoreless the second half.  That NT team played like it enjoyed giving you the ball at mid field just for the challenge.  They were incredible.  Still, they played and beat two good offensive teams that year in MTSU and NMSU, both games coming down to the wire at the end of the season.  The NMSU game ended up 38-27.  In '03 I believe we finished 22nd overall or in scoring defense.  Idaho and NMSU both had good offenses.  One season Idaho was in the top 10 in offense.  With that said, I agree that it must be a loss of depth, and possibly some sort of change in philosophy by maybe a position coach or two that has been the difference.  But mostly the loss of Kennedy and Cardwell is where I lay most of our problems.  When two individuals can dominate like they did, forcing an offense to have to worry about them, that gives you an edge.  We didn't have that this year.  I had thought maybe we still had something special on defense when we came out and stopped MTSU their first series of their game and then forced them to punt much of the night when they weren't turning it over or missing field goals.  Then when we held Tulsa on their first series I thought this team was going to gel early and move forward.  But they were never able to stiffen when we needed them to like in years past.

What I have looked at mostly to get me looking forward to next season is that the final 2 1/2 quarters of the ASU game we had one senior, a sophomore and two true freshmen playing in our secondary.  We will be solid there next season as will our linebacking corp.  Our D line had two juniors on the two deep.  The rest were sophomores, redshirt freshmen and a true freshman.  What we need desparately, desparately!, is that one Booger/Cardwell/Awasome type that can create some problems.  We need a recruit, either from HS or Juco that has that motor running it's RPM's in the red all the damn time.  We find that one guy to go along with the youthfull talent that will be coming back and this defense will be rock solid again.

Rick

←

[PlummMeanGreen]

"truth serum"???.....more like negative serum. 

←

If we slumber (again) at UNT, we will wake up to find other surprise hirings.

Yet one man's negative is another man's positive? What part of what I and others are posting are negative? After all, there is a difference between being negative and realistic.

If DD is your boy, TIgreen, then why don't you volunteer to serve as his talent agent with all the NCAA D1-A schools who are knocking his door down to hire him because of those 4 bowl games that our NT Board of Regents have yet to study NT football media guides to see just who we had to beat in a SBC/Bottom 10 conference to back-in to those 4 bowl games. Negative? No........I'd just say more blatant realism.

But negative you say? I still defer to the most obvious 'tell tell" and red flag in all of this with DD. Once again, I think all the other NCAA D1-A school's (when they've had job openings the last 4 years) not putting Darrell Dickey on their serious list of candidates should be telling Bobby Ray, his Regents and NORTH TEXANS everywhere just what we really have in Denton, Texas. Then couple that with that same Mr. Ray who is most obviously abusing powers as chairman of the BOR's by single-handedly allowing even more multi-year under .500 W/L football mediocrity by DD to continue yet another year at a school that likes to use the word "excellence" in the content of many of its mailings we all get from campus.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

Edited December 1, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[pollock]

I miss the old PMG. When did Evil PMG take over?

[Stan R]

I miss the old PMG.  When did Evil PMG take over?

←

LOL!! Exactly!